Personal Fitness Training Sales Interview with Andy Miller

Here's a Fitness Sales Interview with Andy Miller on how personal trainers, fitness trainers and fitness professionals can create better selling systems to convert more prospects into clients. After having your fitness marketing systems in place, the next most important piece of the puzzle is to have your fitness sales process in place. When it comes to making sales, Andy is the best around, demanding and getting as much as 15K per day for his one of a kind consulting.

Chris:    It’s an honor and a pleasure to bring you the sales wisdom of Andy Miller.  Andy is president and CEO of Sales Management Guru.  He has been featured on CNN, Sales and Marketing Management, Selling Power, Newsweek, Success and Your Company magazines, and has shared the stage with speaking greats Jay Abraham, Dennis Whitely, Brian Tracy, Mark Victor Hansen and Zig Zigler.  Jay Abraham calls him “exceptional and one of the top consulted sales trainers” that he’s ever met.

Chris:    Andy, what is it that you do?

Andy:    My primary focus is I work with CEOs to help them grow their sales organizations.

Chris:    How important is sales if a personal trainer wants to be successful?

Andy:    I think it’s everything.  This is one of the disservices that I think happens through associations and educational institutions.  No matter what you want to do when you grow up or start your profession – whether it’s personal trainer, psychologist, whatever it is – if you are going to have a business where you work for yourself, sales is everything.  The service you provide is important but if you can’t make a sale then you are not going to be able to deliver your service and you are going to be out of business.  

Chris:    That’s been my experience.  A lot of trainers can’t stand selling.  It makes them nervous.  They just want to train people but they just can’t stand the idea of being a salesman.  What would you say to them?

Andy:    I have a couple of thoughts.  Let’s talk about the stereotype salesperson first.  The stereotype salesperson everybody thinks is plaid jacket, orange pants, would sell their mother for the right price, they are fast talking, they just want your money, they don’t care about you and that’s the stereotype.  So when you walk into a store and the clerk comes up and says, “can I help you?” our knee-jerk reaction is always, “no, I’m just looking.”  Because we don’t want the pressure and there’s no trust built.  So that’s the stereotype and that’s the battle that we are up against if you are perceived as a salesperson.  And our fear is “I don’t want to be a salesperson, I don’t want to be one of those” so we try to operate in a different way.

Personally, I don’t see sales that way.  I see sales as facilitation.  What I mean by facilitation is it’s by taking people through a process to help them get in touch with what is important to them and then to see if you are the right person to help them.  And by the way, if you facilitate them by asking good questions and taking them through a process, through that facilitation process you may discover that either they shouldn’t be working with you or you are not necessarily a good fit or whatever.  That’s not what a stereotypical salesperson does, right?  They want to make the sale at all possible costs.

A consultative salesperson consults.  And to me that’s what facilitation is.  Facilitation is really consulting without being attached to the outcome being an order.  Does that make sense?

Chris:    Yeah, that does.  That’s a whole different light on the ….

Andy:    Well that’s why I would say to trainers to change your perspective.  You are not a salesperson, you are a facilitator.  You provide a great service.  There are lots of people out there who want to take their exercise to another level or want to start exercising again, and you know there are all kinds of things you can do for them but you can’t help somebody do something they won’t do for themselves, right?  So part of it is how committed are they and the only way you can find that out is to feel the patient (I think that is what he said…).  So you have a conversation, let’s talk about what the parameters are around it for you, how do you want this to work, what kind of hours, how often you want to come in, what kind of results do you really expect that are reasonable and having a conversation about that.  That’s facilitation.  Let me add one more piece, I’m kind of rambling about this, but isn’t that what you would do with your best friend if he or she called you up and said, “hey I just need to talk to somebody for a little bit, I’ve got something that’s on my mind and I need to just bounce it off someone”?

Chris:    Yeah, that’s exactly what I’d do.

Andy:    You would listen to him, you would ask some questions, you would try to help them get clarity.  Rarely would we be attached to the outcome.  The outcome we want is clarity for them and that’s the way I see it.

Chris:    I have found attaching to the outcome can push sales away because people can feel that.

Andy:    They feel it – they smell the desperation and they feel the pressure and nobody wants to be pressured and nobody wants to be around somebody who is desperate.

I don’t if you saw Gary Larson’s The Far Side cartoons where there was a dog standing along the sidewalk with what was called a “Fear-o-meter” which looked like a Geiger counter and he was holding it up to people as they come by and have you ever noticed that everybody says “Oh my dog is so friendly and a gentle soul” but all of a sudden the dog bites one person and it’s always the same person that gets bitten by a dog?  It’s that kind of thing.

Chris:    Why do people buy?  Why buy a personal training service and why do people buy in general?

Andy:    People buy because they want to change.  People buy for psychological reasons.  The psychological reason is they are either unhappy with how things are in their life today or they want to take things to a whole new level.  Some would call that Tony Robbins carrot or the stick philosophy other people offer different sales models but they would all say it’s either moving towards strategy or an away strategy.  Or I am going to say they are in pain they’ve got a vision of where they want to be.

Chris:    The carrot or the stick.

Andy:    Yup, that’s exactly it.  It’s the carrot or the stick and we’ve got to find out what is motivating them and when I say motivating what I am looking for is a compelling reason.  So sometimes people will tell you something but it’s something they’ve been thinking about for ten years.  Well, okay so I hear a reason now I have to be careful because if I am a facilitator I may challenge what I am hearing a little bit.  If I’m a salesperson I am going to take it and try to run with it and push the sale forward.  So people buy because people want to change and our job is to find out what is that result that they want.  And is the pain that they are in right now compelling enough for them to want to make a change.

Let me give you an example: I was on a sales call a couple of weeks ago talking to this guy and it seemed like what he was talking about was an annoyance but I didn’t hear it being compelling.  And I said to him, “let me just kind of get a sense of where you are at.  If I asked you to label this is it a paper cut?  Is it a second degree burn that needs a little more attention?  Or have you just run over your foot with a lawnmower and you need to go to the emergency room right now?  Which is it?”  And he said, “well it’s a little more than a burn but I haven’t run over my foot with a lawnmower yet.”  Okay, that told me where he was at.  A burn is going to get a little bit of attention but once that pain of that burn is gone away he is going to forget about it.  Your run over your foot with a lawnmower you are not going to forget about it.  You’ve got to take action.  And that’s what I’m looking for: is it a papercut, burn or did you just amputate?

Does that make sense?  Probably a bad analogy but it gets the point across.

Chris:    It’s a good analogy.  I actually find that most people when coming to a personal trainer, it’s the pain that they are trying to alleviate.  More so than going after pleasure.

Andy:    Yup, and that’s what, you know, if you are working with different people who say it is the pain that’s compelling, not the pleasure.  I am not kept with the body building and power lifting world.  I don’t know how many body builders and power lifters out there have personal trainers.

Chris:    Not many.

Andy:    Okay, because they feel like, “I’m doing what I’m supposed to be doing, I’ve got my program, I’m eating right, I’m sleeping right, I’ve got my training log here, I’m going to the gym, I really don’t need anybody to help me do this.”  If they need anything, they will ask their buddy to give them a spot.  So they will have a training partner.  But notice around January, February – at least on the east coast where I am – that you start to see some of the health clubs running ads on getting back to gym, get ready for bathing suit weather and you’ve got a picture of a trim guy and girl running on the beach in bathing suits and the message is always, “spring is just around the corner, come in now we’ve got a special going on.” So they are painting this vision of here’s what you could be.  “We know the holidays are over and you are feeling a little chubby and be careful because if you don’t do something about it now it will be too late when the bathing suit weather comes around.”  And then they actually give you an incentive to take action because they are running their so-called special.  So they are using a multitude of emotional factors there to try to create more pain and get you to come to the gym.

Chris:    Say I want to lose fat.  Is that the actual pain they are in or is it deeper than that, and is there a way to find those deeper reasons?

Andy:    There’s a way to find a deeper reason and when they say they want to lose fat, I’m not a mindreader, I don’t know what they really want.  And neither do the rest of us.  Only they know what they really want.  So when they say “I want to lose fat,” what is losing fat going to do for you or why do you feel like losing fat is the thing?  They might be saying “I don’t feel healthy and I want to lose fat because my cholesterol is up” and they think that losing fat will take care of cholesterol.  Or they may be saying, “I don’t feel good, I don’t feel like I look good and I want to look good, I feel like I look fat and no one is paying attention to me so if I lose fat I will become more attractive and people will pay more attention to me.

Chris:    That’s a big one – the loneliness of not having a mate or that their mate is not paying enough attention to them.  That’s a big one for the pain.  Especially for women.

Andy:    Good, okay.  So my whole point of this conversation is our job is to ask them and find out what their reason is because if they say they want to lose fat, that’s the surface of what’s going on.  We have to ask another question or two and dig down a little deeper.  Because they will do it for their reasons, not for ours.  And I am willing to bet that’s mistake that a lot of personal trainers make that they just take that at face value where if they dug a little bit deeper, you would find out how committed are these folks to really coming in.  I am assuming most personal trainers have a minimum of 10 or 12 weeks or sessions or something of the sort and if we talk about the scenario where how many times do you have somebody who said they wanted to do it, they came to one or two sessions and then they cancelled the third and they rescheduled and then they cancelled that.

Chris:    Often.

Andy:    And why is that?  Because they were caught up in the excitement of the moment but they weren’t really committed.  So some questions you can ask – how can you dig a little bit deeper?  So if somebody says, “well I’d like to lose some fat.”  Then two or three questions you can ask: (1) Tell me why do you want to lose some fat?  (2) What do you hope to accomplish with that? (3) What happens if you don’t lose the fat? What are the consequences?

Chris:    A lot of people will just say, “oh I just want to feel better.  I want to lose the fat because I used to feel better and I want to look better.”

Andy:    Okay you want to feel better and look better but —

Chris:    They are still kind of surface-y, though.  They are still not –

Andy:    It is still kind of surface-y because I’d say – and I don’t want to sound sarcastic because it’s not meant that way but it’s like, listen, I’ve heard a lot of people say they wanted to but there’s a difference between wanting to and being committed to.  And so I am trying to find out from you – the potential customer – how committed are you and why?  What’s driving you?  Why do you really want to do this?  Because that’s what I’ve got to find out.  And if they say, “every time I go to the grocery store with my husband he’s looking around at all the little hotties and not paying attention to me anymore” and it’s like okay because now  you can get into the positioning of what’s it going to take to really be successful working with you.  And when I say that it’s like okay because let me explain how much work it’s going to take to get to where you want to be.  You say you are 15% body fat now you want to get down to 11 (I’m assuming it’s a woman) you want to drop two dress sizes, blah blah blah blah, but here’s the challenge.  It means you are going to have to come in here early in the morning five days a week or three days a week or whatever the program is that you think is going to be in their best interest.  And you are going to need to do that for a period of three to four months.  And the way we work is we really expect you to be here and if you are not committed to doing it then we’ve got the right to drop you as a client.  So when you figure here’s the time it’s going to take and this is the money that it’s going to cost are you really that committed to doing this?  Because if you are not, let’s not get started.

Chris:    That’s kind of the opposite of what a lot of trainers – a lot of trainers have that meaty kind of energy.  They are desperate for clients.  This brings me right into the next question which I really want to get into.  When I met you in San Diego at the One Coach event, you had outlined a three step process.  Can you go into those steps for me here?

Andy:    I sure can.  Those three steps – I just kept it real simple and I need to caveat this for a second because the three steps I am going to give you don’t fit for every industry.  This is kind of like for what you do, these are the three steps.  For other industries and other people, it may be totally different.  But for the personal training business, these three steps are right on the money.  And to me those three steps I gave you were – there are three things I want to know:  Pain, I’m going to say Money but I’ll explain that in a little bit because it’s more than money, and Decision.

The Pain is what we just got done talking about.  Do they have a compelling reason to want to work with me and come to the gym on a regular basis?  For whatever time period we think they really need to come for to get the results they want.  That’s Pain.

Money – I’m going to call that Investment because there’s the investment, the money that they are going to pay you to be their trainer but to me throwing money at this, this is easy.  The Investment part is their time and energy to show up consistently for “X” period of weeks or months to get the results that they want.  It also means their Investment would be things like weight training or strength training, could be some kind of cardio, could be some kind of diet, or any combination of but it takes discipline and hard work to pull that off.  And if they are not willing to invest that, they’ll throw money at you but they won’t come and do it and then what do you think happens when somebody gives you money but they don’t come to the gym anymore and they are not getting the results that they wanted to get.  Who are they going to blame?

Chris:    The trainer.

Andy:    They are going to blame the trainer.  So it’s like the best way to nip all that in the bud is just deal with it up front.  So I really should call it Pain, Investment and Decision.

The third part, the Decision, is so what they need to know from you for them to decide whether this is the way they want to go or not.  So they may say they want to come in for one workout, that’s fine, and they may say they want to talk to their spouse about it, which is also fine, but I would encourage you to have them invite their spouse to come in and workout too.

Chris:    Yeah, the spouse – that’s a big one.  When people come in, it’s either I need to check my finances or I need to talk it over with my husband.

Andy:    Yeah.  And for me it would be why don’t you check your finances before you come in.

Chris:    So you would do this on the phone.

Andy:    Yeah, I would do this on the phone.  It really depends on how busy you are.  If you can do it face-to-face that’s better but if you’re busy and you don’t have time to do it face-to-face, I’d do it over the phone.  And you may want to experiment.  You may want to try both ways and see what works best for you.  Some people are better face-to-face and some people are better over the phone.  But it really all comes down to qualification.  And if after the workout if the excuse that you hear is “I have to check my finances” or “I need to talk with my spouse” why not just deal with that in advance?  Why not just say, “you know, a lot of times people come in and they tell me they either need to check their finances or talk with their spouse, so I’d like to encourage you to check your finances before you come in and have a conversation with your spouse before you come in or bring him or her along with you, so that they can see the facilities, meet the trainer and we’ll work them out, too, so they can experience it for themselves.  And who knows?  You might end up getting two clients instead of one.

Chris:    Sure that’s happened many times.  So the three steps, again, are …

Andy:    Pain.  Investment.  Decision.

Chris:    Okay.  Can we maybe do a little role playing and you can walk me through these steps?

Andy:    Sure.

Chris:    Okay so let’s pretend that I’m meeting with you at the gym.  I’ve showed up, someone has referred me and I’m meeting you at the gym.  And I’m a female and I’m inquiring about training.  I’m asking, “Hi, I’m looking for a personal trainer.  I’m wondering how much it costs?”

Andy:    Sure, we can talk about that in a second.  Before we go there, let’s talk about what kind of results are you looking for because then I can tell you what it’s going to cost.  So can you share with me what are you hoping working with a personal trainer is going to do for you?

Chris:    Oh, well you know, I just kind of want to tone up after I had my second child.  I put on like an extra 20 lbs and I just want to tone up and just feel better.

Andy:    Okay, yeah, I don’t blame you.  How old is your second child now?

Chris:    Well, she’s two years now.

Andy:    Okay, well congratulations!  Two years, yeah great.  So it’s been two years since you had her and you still have got a little bit of that baby fat hanging in there.  

Chris:    Yeah, I’ve tried working out a few times and it just doesn’t workout so I figure maybe you can kind of fix it for me.

Andy:    Okay, well let’s talk about that a little further.  Maybe I can and maybe I can’t.  It kind of depends on you.  So let’s find out about your circumstances and see what makes sense.  So you told me you’ve done a little bit of working out since you had your child two years ago.  What kind of things have you done?

Chris:    Well, you know, I’ve gone to the gym and used a few machines but I don’t really know what I’m doing and I’ve taken a few classes but I get going for like a week or two and then I just kind of give up because I don’t see many results.

Andy:    And why do you think that is?

Chris:    I guess because I just don’t know what to do.  What machines to use.

Andy:    Okay, so if you felt like we would sit down and help you figure out what machines to use and the right way to use them, you’d feel better about that?

Chris:    Yeah, I would.  Because I get kind of nervous when I come into the gym and everybody looks like they’re in shape and I’m not.  I’m like 20 lbs. overweight and my hips stick out so I feel like if somebody could show me and help me I wouldn’t be so nervous with it.

Andy:    Okay, that’s fine.  And a lot of people feel that way.  Have you tried anything else?

Chris:    Well you know I’ve gone to Weight Watchers but I got sick of counting all the points and that’s really about it.  

Andy:    Okay, so you tried to workout a couple of times, you tried Weight Watchers, got tired of counting the points and you’ve not gotten the results you’ve wanted to get.  You’ve still got 20 lbs. hanging in there a little bit.  So here’s my question: I hear you talking about this and I’d love to have you come work with us as a client but here’s the challenge.  The challenge is I’m not hearing that – and I could be wrong, please tell me I’m wrong if I am – I’m  not hearing that you are super committed to losing that 20.

Chris:    Oh, I’m committed.
Andy:    How so?

Chris:    Well, I’m here talking to you.

Andy:    Well, that’s a good start but that could just be tire-kicking.

Chris:    No, I’m definitely committed, I just – you know all the girls at my husband’s office are all real attractive and it makes me kind of insecure and I’m committed.  Yeah, I’m committed.

Andy:    Okay, so let’s talk about what’s it really going to take to get rid of those 20 lbs and get back to the body that you want to have.  Can we do that?  Okay, so here’s typically the way that it works:  when we bring on a client with goals like yours, what we find is it takes about a two pounds a week that it takes.  So you are going to need to work with us for a minimum of 10 weeks and I’m going to say we probably ought to go for 12 to get the results that you want.

Chris:    Okay, how much is that going to cost?

Andy:    We’ll get there in a second.  I’m not even worried about the cost yet, I’m worried about what it’s really going to take to get rid of those 20 lbs.  So let’s talk about the effort you are going to have to put into it and then we’ll talk about the money in a second.  So what that means is you are going to have to come in to the gym three to four times a week, preferably it’s going to be in the morning but we want to make sure – we’ve got to find a schedule that’s convenient for you because if it’s not convenient then you won’t stick with it.  So we’ve got to come up with a schedule that works for you, it’s going to take you three to four times a week, it’s going to be a combination of strength conditioning and some kind of cardio to help you do a fat burn.  And it’s going to take some discipline on diet.  And there’s just no way around it.  Now the reason I’m saying this to you is we hear a lot of people say they want to do this and they tell us they are committed and then they start going through this and it gets a little tough and then they bail out.  So what we don’t want to do is we don’t want to do you a disservice.  The disservice would be to get your hopes up, get you started, then have you end up being sore and tired and just going forget it I don’t want this.  So now that I said that, did that scare you off?

Chris:    Actually, the diet part scared me off because I like to eat chocolate, I mean I’m a girl.

Andy:    Yeah, of course, who doesn’t?  And I’m not saying you have to eliminate chocolate altogether.  How often do you eat chocolate now?

Chris:    Oh, three or four nights a week.

Andy:    Three or four nights a week.  How much of that would you be willing to give up?

Chris:    Maybe half.

Andy:    So you’d be willing to go to two nights a week.

Chris:    Yeah, I can do that.
Andy:    Because let’s go back to what you told me originally.  You’d like to lose the 20 lbs and your husband works in an office full of hotties.

Chris:    Yeah, I hate it.

Andy:    Okay, so which is more important to you?  The chocolate or getting back in shape so you can compete with the hotties?

Chris:    Well, actually I want both but getting back into shape.

Andy:    Okay, so real world – if you are going to keep eating the chocolate but you are going to cut back – it’s doable.  But it’s not going to happen as two pounds a week, now it’s going to go to one pound a week.  So you are talking 20 weeks of working out.  And if you are okay with that, we are too, but we just want to manage your expectations.  We don’t want you to come to the gym and think you are going to workout with us for a day and leave here looking like a super model in a day.

Chris:    I know it takes a little time, but you don’t think I can lose 20 lbs. in a month?

Andy:    Not if you want to eat that level of chocolate.

Chris:    Okay, I can cut down the chocolate.

Andy:    And I’m sorry – I don’t mean to be giving you a hard time.  I’m not hearing the conviction in your voice.

Chris:    Yeah, I know.  Yeah, well I really want this, it’s just hard.  I’m scared because I’ve always dropped off before and I haven’t really gotten the results.  But I know probably if I just paid you guys and I knew that you had the money that I would have to show up for the workouts.

Andy:    You really think it will work that way?

Chris:    Yeah.  As long as it’s not expensive.

Andy:    Okay.  Well, maybe it should be expensive.  The only reason I said that is because you said if you paid us money then you’ll have to show up.  And I’m thinking paying this money is not the motivator.  If the hotties in your husband’s office aren’t a good enough reason, throwing money at it isn’t going to make it any stronger.  And I don’t mean to be talking you out of this, it’s just we only take on clients who are absolutely committed to going all the way through the program because everybody says they want to see results and they want to see it in a week but it doesn’t take a week.  It’s going to take a month before you really notice it.  You’ll notice it if you stick with the program but to manage your expectations, we need to get real and the reality is it will take you four weeks before you really notice a difference.  So now that I’ve said that, I’m not trying to scare you off or talk you out of this but I am trying to be real because if you aren’t committed doing the whole thing, we shouldn’t get started.  So where are you at?

Chris:    I am committed.  What do I do next?

Andy:    Okay, let’s tell you what the investment is on the financial side.  What we do is we charge $60 a workout and if you pay for the whole program and you will commit to the 20 weeks, but you’ll pay for it in four monthly payments, then the fee gets dropped down to $50 a workout because it’s a bulk deal.  So what we would need to do is get you to go through a workout, make sure that you are comfortable working with the trainer and that this is what you really want to do at the end of that workout, we’ll ask you to sign some paperwork, bring your calendar because we want to get this scheduled and we’ll get you started.  Does that make sense?

Chris:    Sure that makes sense.

Andy:    So what would you like to do?

Chris:    I guess let’s make the appointment.

Andy:    Okay, great – got your calendar?

Chris:    I’ve got my calendar.  And Andy let me interject – if there is any way you can go into having them check their finances or if they have someone they need to talk it over with while we’re doing this role play.

Andy:    Okay, how does next Friday look?

Chris:    That’s good.

Andy:    Okay, Friday, pick a time in the morning.

Chris:    9 a.m.

Andy:    9 a.m.  Okay, great.  We got that down.  So next Friday at 9 a.m.  Before we go I just have two other questions to ask you.  Are you ready?  Typically, when somebody comes in for a workout, after the workout is over we expect them to get started.  Every now and then we’ll hear somebody say, “well, I don’t know if I can get started because I need to check my finances or I need to talk to my husband.”  Any possibility that’s going to happen with you?

Chris:    Well, yeah, I might need to over the finances with my husband.  

Andy:    Okay, so is it possible you can do that before you came in for the workout so you know whether you can do it or not?

Chris:    Yeah, I can do that but he would probably have to okay it for me to workout.

Andy:    Okay, so you’ll talk with him about the finances and make sure that it’s doable.  If you like the workout.  And you said he’d have to okay…?

Chris:    Yeah, he’d have to give me final approval on whether I can pay for it or not.

Andy:    Okay, so can you get his pre-approval before you come to the workout?

Chris:    Yeah, I can do that.

Andy:    Can I make another suggestion?  A lot of times people say they want to talk to their spouse like you’re telling me now – would it make sense to pick a time where he can come in with you, he can actually see the facilities, meet the trainer and if he wanted to, if he brought his workout clothes he can workout, too.

Chris:    Yeah, I can ask him that.  That sounds like fun.

Andy:    Okay, why don’t you do that because we just find it’s much easier for the spouse to get the other spouse to get excited about this if they come together and they see it and check it out.

Okay – out of role play.  How was that?

Chris:    That was great.  That was perfect, especially for you not being in the industry you just nailed it.

Andy:    Yeah, it’s got to be something close to that.  Right now the caveat I want to make sure gets into the transcript is every situation is different so we are going to have the conversation about pain, investment and decision so that’s the flow that you follow but I am always adjusting myself based upon the personality of the person that I am talking to.  So – and my style is different so if a trainer reads through that and goes “I don’t like this” well that’s because they don’t deal with those personality types or they, themselves, are not that personality type.  The beauty of pain, investment and decision is that it doesn’t matter what your personality type is, you can adjust to the situation.  Are you with me?  Because sometimes people get hung up on “Oh I wouldn’t do it that way” and it’s like, of course you wouldn’t.  That’s not you.  And the kind of clients you deal with, that’s not them.  So as long as you follow those steps and you pay attention to the person that you are interacting with, it will go fine.

Chris:    So it’s finding out their pain – getting down to the reason that they are here.  Okay, and then outline the investment, not only of time but of the effort.

Andy:    The effort – did you notice how I did that?  I didn’t want to get into the money yet, because, listen, if they are not willing to do the effort, who cares what I cost?  If they are not willing to do the effort, then it doesn’t matter what I charge.  Because they won’t get results.  And then we got the appointment and then we talked about decision.

Chris:    And the decision was when they are either going to do it or they aren’t.  

Andy:    Yup.  And the decision was … typically when I talk to people they tell me they’d like to discuss with their spouse too.  And she said “yeah, I want to talk with my husband.”  So now we are talking about how is she going to go about making a decision.  And it’s like well – if you want you can bring your husband in with you.  So we got the decision covered that way.  My guess is that was a pretty typical scenario.

Chris:    That’s why I am just saying the stuff that I hear almost weekly.  So everything you are hearing out of me, I’ve heard 100 times at least.  That’s the most common client.

Andy:    Perfect, and for you for they way we did the dialogue, at any point were you uncomfortable?

Chris:    Who, me, Chris as the interviewer or me as the client?

Andy:    You as the female client or potential client.

Chris:    No, not at all.

Andy:    Okay, because your personality could handle the way in which I was asking you questions.  My style, had I been talking to your wife or one of your trainers with a different personality style, the way in which I would have asked my questions would have been different.

Chris:    Your style is very close to kind of how I do it.

Andy:    Yeah, I mean I am fairly direct but some people if direct is a little too intrusive then I soften it up and go a little more indirect.  And again the reason I’m saying that is because the danger with role playing when somebody is not there – when somebody is not there they go, “oh well, I wouldn’t do it that way” or “that doesn’t work for me” and again, folks, it’s the style in which you do it if you stick to the three steps and you pay attention to who you are talking to you adjust your style for each situation.  And I really want to stress that.  People get hung up on when they read these kind of things, they are like, “awwww” and it’s like chill out.

Chris:    Is there another little personality type that you suggest that we can do a quick little role play to show the opposite example.

Andy:    If you can think of one I’d be happy to do it.

Chris:    Like that’s someone you can be direct with, right, the one we just talked about?  Is there a certain type of personality type that you’d have to be more indirect with?

Andy:    Do you have a client that comes to mind without revealing that person’s name who is not direct?  My guess is probably not with you.  My guess is you probably – most of your clients are people who are drawn to your style.

Chris:    Yeah, and I qualify people very good over the phone before they come in.  I always make sure that this is something if they come in that they can afford, okay, if they come in, and that they are going to show up at 100% no matter what to the trial workout because it is complementary so I get that commitment and that they can afford it and the only reason they are not going to do it is either because (1) they didn’t prove themselves to me that they are willing to work hard enough for their goals.  Not that they have to be an athlete but they have to prove to me that they have heart and they really want to go after it.  Or (2) I am not the right trainer for them.  But it doesn’t come down to a financial thing.  I go over that “you’re coming in for me to prove myself to you but also for you to prove yourself to me.”

Andy:    Exactly, that’s exactly right.  And that’s the attitude that trainers should have but here’s the reality: the bravery to pull that off is only as strong as how full their calendar is.

Chris:    Exactly, I can see telling a new trainer this who only has two people …

Andy:    Yeah, and their just going, first they are bored out of their minds because they are not busy enough, second of all their cash flow isn’t good so they are little nervous and at that point let’s just call it what it is.  Most of us will take anybody but here’s what will happen: we won’t qualify them while we’ll go, “hey why don’t you come in for a workout?”  And after the workout happens then they’ll have the conversation.  But there’s a problem: the problem is they’ve already spilled their guts, they’ve already gotten a taste of what you have and now they have no reason to have to cooperate with you.  So at this point the opportunity to facilitate is gone.  So the facilitation should happen on the front end but you know what, having them come in – not having that conversation, going straight for a workout, it works too.  It just doesn’t work as well.

Chris:    Yeah, I’ve noticed myself.

Andy:    Yup, I mean that will still work.   You’ll have to do a whole lot more of those and you’ll get frustrated because you’ll be doing a whole lot of free consulting.

Chris:    Yeah, and I used to get tons of people who either wouldn’t show up for the workouts I had scheduled or they would show up and couldn’t afford it.  Once I started qualifying, especially with those two things – and it’s amazing throwing in the one to tell people, “okay you are also coming in to prove yourself to me.  And I do that a lot in my marketing and it’s amazing how people just want to prove themselves to you.  It’s like ….

Andy:    Absolutely.  And those are the clients you want because they will stick to the program, they will do exactly what you tell them to do, they’ll get better results and they’ll tell their friends and their friends are people who are like them.  Who are also committed in results and will do what it takes.  And that’s what I’ve noticed.  People tend to attract similar people so if you want better, stronger clients then start qualifying better – start telling them what the expectations are, start raising the bar and that’s exactly what you’ll get.

Chris:    Yeah, I’ve found that to be true.  Let me ask you a question: we were just talking about the newer trainers who only have a few people and are a little insecure.  I noticed a lot of these guys sell on having the lowest price and they are always willing to negotiate their price.  What would you say about that?  I’ve learned for myself personally I never negotiate price and I have actually never had one person walk away when they’ve asked me to negotiate price and I’ve told them that I never do that – I’ve never had a person not train with me because of that.  What would you say about trainers negotiating on price?

Andy:    I don’t like negotiating on price.  I don’t believe in it.  You’ve got to have the mindset that you are worth everything that you are charging and more.  And if you are already a bargain and somebody wants to negotiate on price, then you’ve got to be able to look at her and go, “listen, I am going to give you tremendous value.  The price I am quoting you is already a bargain.  That’s the best I can do so you’ve got to decide: are you committed to doing this and if the question is am I the right trainer then it’s simple.  Let’s go through a workout and at the end of the workout you can decide if I’m the right one or not.  But if my price is too much for you then we should just stop where we’re at.  

Chris:    Yeah, you know, there is always a cheaper trainer around.

Andy:    Sure there is.  One of the things I like to ask them is what kind of car do they drive.  And the reason I ask that is nobody drives the cheapest car.  There’s a couple of people out there but – and I’m not passing judgment on anybody but the fact is you do get what you pay for.  I mean if somebody is a cheap trainer there’s a reason they are cheap trainer, isn’t there?

Chris:    Yeah, totally.  And when people have asked I always tell them, well, look, I’m not the cheapest trainer.  If you are looking for cheap, I’m not the guy for you.  If you’re looking for good results and an affordable price – that’s what I have to offer but if you are looking for cheap, I can refer you to a much less experienced trainer.  There are cheaper trainers around.

Andy:    Yeah, and that’s exactly it.  They are cheaper because they don’t have the experience and they won’t get you the results as quickly as I will get you the results.  But if you are willing to work with an apprentice you should go that route.  But I think if you are going to have back surgery or surgery – do you go looking for the cheapest surgeon?  No.  Now depending on what kind of surgery – if it’s routine then you will take anybody as long as they are decent.  But if it’s brain surgery or something really delicate with all kinds of consequences if it’s not done right, you will take your time to make sure that you get the right surgeon and you don’t care what they cost.  Now I don’t mean to be saying that personal training is brain surgery, but the fact is a good qualified personal trainer will get you better results than somebody who is new to the business.

Chris:    Far better.

Andy:    I’m assuming – does ACE certify people?

Chris:    Yeah, ACE does.

Andy:    Okay so I’m assuming that somebody who is in the business and who is good is going to be an ACE certified trainer.  I’m going to assume that they keep up on the programs and the latest research.  I’m going to assume that a really good trainer can help people explain the difference between something like the high intensity training vs. doing a fat burn vs. cardio vs. high intensity because you have people try to go out and read books and Internet and all that stuff there’s a lot of confusing information out there and it’s like so who’s going to help them sort that out?

Chris:    Yeah.  Well you know it’s funny, I do know a ton of trainers who keep up on that research, have all the certifications, are great trainers but they don’t know how to market and they don’t know how to sell and because of that, they make the average which for a personal trainer is like $29,000 a year which I know trainers who aren’t nearly as good who make $100,000, $200,000 a year plus working part time just because, well they are good trainers but you know what:  they know how to market and they know how to sell.

Andy:    Exactly.  And that, to me, is the secret – not just in personal training but in many industries. I’ve seen many people with a product that was inferior but they were master marketers.  And to me the key, if you are committed to being one of the best personal trainers out there, not only do you need to know your craft well, but you also need to learn how to become a master marketer and you need to become good at selling.  I bet if we went out and looked at those folks who are making $200,000 a year part-time or full-time, I bet we would see that they were good about marketing and promotion and they had very clear sales steps.  Probably similar to what you and I just role played.

Chris:    Yeah.  And how they train doesn’t play that much of a factor in their income.  Now how they treat their clients during the workouts and stuff like that does but if you line them up, their training is usually no better than average.  I have found.  It’s how they treat people, their personality, how they sell, how they market, applying a lot of like Dale Carnegie, “how to win friends and influence people” type stuff to their day to day interactions – it’s that bottom line stuff.

Andy:    Exactly.

Chris:    Andy, this has been phenomenal.  Let me ask you one more question:  What is the question I should have asked you, but didn’t?

Andy:    It’s probably more a statement that I need to make.  Everything you and I have been talking about has to do with your beliefs and your mindset.  When you look at your clients and compare the folks at the top who get great results and the folks at the bottom who don’t, what are the one or two things that differentiate those folks?  

Chris:    Can you repeat that to me?

Andy:    Yeah.  Let’s take your top 10% of your clients and your bottom 10% of your clients.  The bottom 10% work one way and the top 10% work another.  What’s the difference between those two groups?

Chris:    Well the big one is the top 10% of folks know what they want and the bottom 10% are focused on what they have right now and they don’t like what they have and they are so separated from what they want.  The top 10% show up on time, every time.  The bottom 10% is very flaky.  The top 10% honor their word, they walk the talk.  The bottom 10% doesn’t.  Basic life principles.  Easy stuff that anybody can do.

Andy:    Okay.  So I’m going to group most of that under How They Think.  

Chris:    Yes, 100%.

Andy:    Showing up on time, focusing on what you want, committed to doing what it takes vs. not showing up on time, missing appointments, focused on what they don’t like instead of what they want.  All that boils down to is How You Think.  And so the one question that you didn’t ask me the topic we probably should have discussed is You Are What You Think.  You get the results that you think and expect, you’ll perform according to that and that’s what it comes down to.  If somebody goes, “Well, I know Andy is saying it’s about facilitation but I still think it’s sales and I don’t want to do that.”  Guess what?  Then they won’t.  And if they go, “Yeah, that’s right.  I need to learn how to get better at this and I’m going to start paying more attention to it.”  Guess what?  They are going to get an improvement.  Most of us know the children’s book, The Little Engine That Could – it comes down to are you going to be the little engine that could or are you going to be the little engine that could not.  And all of that is a function of your thinking.

Chris:    I agree 100%.

Andy:    So Napoleon Hill’s Think and Grow Rich, right?

Chris:    Great book.

Andy:    Yep.  So that, to me, if we cut through everything we talked about, that’s the single factor:  If you took a trainer who is committed to growing their business and had them find out some of the trainers in the industry who are earning top dollar and they just work for them for a year or two, saying, “I’m going to learn everything that I can” that would rub off on them and they would walk out of there knowing how to run their business a much better way with way more profit.  But you’ve got to get around people who think that way.  

Chris:    That’s been my experience.  Andy, how can people get a hold of you?

Andy:    If they want to get a hold of me, they can call me or pop me an email.  My number, I’m in Virginia, is 703-922-7160.  Or they can send me an email to asmiller(at)smguru(dot)com  

Chris:    And what is your website?

Andy:    www.smguru.com

 

Make More and Work Less

Chris McCombs

Specialist in Selling Personal Training Services