James May of Marketing Velocity on Marketing, Sales and Persuasion

When it comes to marketing, sales and persuasion James May is true master. James can teach you a lot when it comes to how to market a personal training business or a fitness business James who are you? What do you do? I'm just going to kind of give you the stage.

Well, I'm an older guy; I just turned 60. I am the president of Marketing Velocity. I also own a construction company and have for years, which is a pretty good sized company that's on automatic pilot now.

It's probably worthwhile to mention that I did hypnotherapy for 10 years because I worked with clients one-on-one through the '80s. And at the time I was charging $3000 a session. I was making about four times the money that the psychologists were making because I guaranteed results, and I learned a lot of things about people and about persuasion during those times.

Currently most of my effort is in my marketing company where I create different types of information products. It's not so much that it's something that I want to sell, but there's a way of making a profit-generating system that would really be probably a good place to start because I can lay it out for you on the phone and anybody listening to the recording can write down what I say and they can start making money in their business right away.

Let's say — pick any kind of business. Let's say a chiropractor because I have a good chiropractor that's used this system that's made some serious money with it. What you do is you sit down and you say, "Okay, who are the people that would want what I offer?" In other words, who are the people that want chiropractic care? And you make a list of those people. Then you make a list of the people that also would see the same people as you do, like medical doctors, personal trainers. And the personal trainers can make part of the program a visit to a chiropractor. This is one of the things that Dr. Arnold [ph] did that worked really well for him.

So you make those lists of those things and then what you do is you say to yourself, "Okay, what do these people want when they come to a chiropractor? And what do they not want?" So you have two lists now; you have the things that they want, the things that they don't want. And the way I've always done my research — I know now with the Internet a lot of people use that, but like I said I'm old school. And so what I would do is I would go out and ask people just wherever I happened to be in my day-to-day life. As an example, I might be stopping and getting gas and I would go across the island and talk to the guy and ask the guy, say, "Have you ever had anybody remodel your house?" "You look like a business man. Have you ever had a consultant?" And I'd ask him what was good, what was bad, and what would he prefer.

So you'd have what was good, what was bad, what would you prefer? You get the answer to those three questions and you write them down. So now you take the list — this is what they want on the one side, this is what they don't want on the other side — and you go under that list and you write down, "This is what I will do and this is what I will not do."

As an example, say somebody is going to go to a chiropractor. "I will not do anything that would damage you. I will not do anything that will cause you more pain. I will not do anything that's unethical." Whatever it is that you find that people want or don't want you put on that list. And then from that you create all your marketing pieces and you send out a letter that basically says, "We're different because –" and then you put in, "Here's what we will do, here's what we won't do." And you send it out to the different segments of what your lists are.

Because people come to a chiropractor or people come to a fitness trainer for different reasons. Some people come to a fitness trainer because they want to lose body fat; that's probably the most common. Other ones want to get into shape for a certain sport. Other people want to get in shape because they want to look a certain way for a wedding or different things. So you address all those things and you find the market, which is the list of people.

There's a lot of information — you can probably get some of that from Chris. There's a place on the Internet called MelissaData.com where they'll do searches for you. I know a psychologist who did a search for people that made over $200,000 a year that had stress. So if they can find that, they can find almost anything.

And then you send your pieces, you send out your direct mail — I do a lot of direct mail — or you send our your e-mail campaign, or you send out voice mail, your fax, and you address all those things. And what that does for you is it connects you with where people really live, because those are the things they think about. In the selling process, the way I see it, is I don't really sell anybody anything.

The way I look at it is I want to engage people and see if there's a niche, a match, if there's way that we can do business together. Does it make sense for both of us? Not just for me, but for both of us — and not just for them. And the way to do that is you connect with people. And then after you connect with them —

Let me back up a minute and say one thing that's really critical for this whole process. And that is that everybody — including me, including you — is preoccupied for a lot of reasons. You don't know if you have an appointment, if somebody just found out his wife is filing for divorce, or a kid was in accident, or something bad happened in his business. And you need a mechanism to where when you meet them you give them something. I have several different gifts that we use. One of the things we use is we give them a gratitude stone. And the idea of that is we put it in a little box and wrap it up and we give it to them. And we say, "Before we start I have a gift for you." What that does — and it doesn't necessarily have to be that, but you need to give them something that you can get them engaged with. It brings them into the present moment and it brings you into the present moment.

And then after that, what I learned from doing therapy for years is that people live in their beliefs and their values. And if you have a conflict with anybody, whether it's somebody that works for you or whether it's somebody you live with, whether it's your spouse or your children, it's going to be a values conflict. In other words, they're going to either value something less or more than you are; it's going to be less or more important.

And so what we do is we say, "Okay, what's important to you about going to a chiropractor?" "What's important to you about having some direct mail or marketing pieces done for you?" "What's important to you about –" whatever. And you want to get four or five — four is the minimum, maybe five — responses from them. Some people say, "It's important that I have integrity." "It's important that I make money doing it."

And you will find the common error with this is you think the first thing they say is the most important to them, and it's generally not; that's usually the third or fourth thing they tell you, because they have to get past all their gatekeepers and all their fears to get down to that. By getting them connected with you, you get there faster.

Then what you do is you take them in order. In other words, maybe integrity. For me personally, freedom. And to identify freedom, that means I get to do what I want, when I want, and I'm obligated to nobody outside of my family that I have to anything, that I have choices about how to spend my life, how to spend my days, and I can do — as an example, I have three girls. I can send the girls to the colleges of their choices, not to the college of default, because we can afford to do that. So that has always been a high criteria for me.

So if you come to me and you show me what you're doing, whether it's a chiropractor — and he'll show me by doing this and adjusting me and seeing me once a month, which I go once a month for a tune-up — that it's going to help me move better, especially as you age, and it's going to help me do the things that I want to do with my girls and keep me active, he's got my attention because now he's selling me and he's showing me the highest criteria that I have, the highest value that I have. He's showing me by what he does that I will get that. And it's almost irresistible when people do this to you.

Let me give you an example. I learned sometimes stories are the best way. I learned to sell when I was 9 years old. My father was a salesman all his life; he owned several appliance stores and other businesses. It came one summer with a friend of mine. David lived two doors down. He and I were friends and we had scoured all the neighborhood days before and got all the Coke cans and beer cans and turned them all in. And we'd already spent all that money and we looked for more; we had pretty much got all of them. And the ones that we didn't get, the other kids got. So I went to him and I said, "I want to earn some money because we want to go to the show. What can we do?"

And so we had a big lot. I grew up in Norwalk, California and we had a big lot — it was about 150 foot lot — and we had all kinds of fruit trees. My dad says, "Go down to Al's Market. Get some of those little plastic containers that they throw out, that they put the strawberries in, and bring those home. Bring a bunch of them, enough to fill up your little red wagon."

And so I bring them home and I clean them up and he says, "Okay, now go out and pick some of the avocados, but don't pick all ripe ones. Pick some that will be ripe in a day or two. Put those in the bottom and then put some ripe ones on top." Then he says, "Take one and put all really ripe ones that you can tell are really juicy in the one and put that in the back of your wagon." He says, "Go only to the neighbors that don't have avocado trees. The Smiths have the, the Jones have them, so don't go there. You can't sell anybody because they already have the exact same thing that you're trying to sell them."

And then he says, "If they say no," he says, "go to the back where all the ripe ones are, pick one out, break it in half, and say this: 'The only reason you're saying no is because you haven't tasted them yet.' Hand them the avocado and shut up." And I was able to sell out in about three-quarters of a block, got the money we wanted, and went to the show. So the selling process was a way of connecting with them and a way of asking for what you want.

There was an interesting thing I read a few years ago by a guy named Warren Blair. And he was able to distill the whole selling persuasion process, what he calls "one 27-word sentence that describes it all." So I'm going to read that to you now and I'm going to read it slow so that if you want to take notes you can.

"People will do anything for those who encourage their dreams, justify their failures, release their fears, confirm their suspicions, and help them throw rocks at their enemies."

Now, if you take those five things and you write them down in order and you take those with the list that you have on your profit-generating system and your wants and don't wants, and you add those to them and you think, "This is what they say they don't want, this is the fear they have, here's how I alleviate that. Here's what their dreams are." I do this all the time with my clients. And you have to take people from where you find them, because not everybody is on the same spectrum, especially when it comes to marketing and business.

So you take them where you find them. Some of them are more sophisticated, some of them aren't. And you take them there and then you show them how exactly you do these five things for them. And combine that with their values and what's important to them, your sales will grow from — maybe you're good. Maybe you're doing 6 out of 10; they'll go to 9 out of 10, 9 1/2 out of 10. My sales record is in the 90 percent all the time. Most of the time it's a matter of me not wanting to work with somebody because there's some kind of personality difference, or I might not just resonate with them, or they may not like me. So it's usually on a personality level rather than whether we decide whether or not we want to work with them.

I think it would probably be educational and probably be beneficial to the people on the call if we went through an example of some of these. So let's say we start with the list. The first one on the list is to encourage their dreams. Well, we all do that with our children so it's not anything different. And speaking of children, if you really look at this — and this is not to be condescending to anybody, because I'm the same way — we're all really just kids inside in big bodies. We still have the same emotions. We still have the same feelings. We still have everything. And we want to be led. We want somebody to take us by the hand and say, "Don't cross the street here because the cars will run you over." "Watch out for this." "If a stranger comes up to you in a car, don't talk to him."

So we want to see our customers that way. Not so much that we're saying, "They're children and we're adults," not at all. What we're saying is that we recognize them in the level where they live. And what we want to do is we want to protect them, we want to guide them, we want to nurture them, we want to make them feel good, we want to hold their hand and take them through the process.

Personal fitness people are great. I have a personal trainer and he took me through the whole thing. He says, "Here's the supplements you're — here's how you need to eat. Here's the five times you need to eat. Here's what you should have. Here's the combination. Here's three examples of what you could have at each one of these meals. What I want you to do is I want you to put an alarm on your cell phone so it goes off at 10:30 and at 3:30 so you know that's about time to have your mid-morning and mid-afternoon snack." Well, you think I trust him? Of course I trust him, because he's taking me through all the steps. He's taking me through all the vitamins and all the supplements; why I'm going to take them, where I'm going to take them, and the effect that I can expect.

So what we want to do with our customers, with our prospects, is we want to take them through an experience that we create. I've been asked a lot of times — and I will get back. I haven't lost track of where we were. I will get back to the examples but I want to do a little side thing first. I've been asked a lot about if I had somebody come to work for me how do I train them to sell? Well, first of all, I don't call it "selling." I call it "we're going to decide whether what we do is the best thing for these people and the best choice." And if it's not, we want to tell them that and we want to direct them to somebody that has a better choice than we do. So we want to be the best place as much as we can, but if we're not, we're not.

So what I do is I tell them that you need to go through the list exactly what I said. "Here's how we do our research." When I had my girls — I'll give you a really good example. When my wife was pregnant with our first girl I asked probably 5000 women what was good about their dad, what was bad about it, what would they prefer to have? Almost to the woman they said, "I would have liked to know him when I was little because he was always gone at work." So what I did was I made it a ritual for our family that two days a week I took the girls to work with me. And at that time I was in the construction business so we would do mostly estimating and checking on drops and just really bonded with my kids.

But what I'm talking about is you do the same thing with your customers. So the first thing I would teach somebody if I was training them to sell was I'm going to teach them two skills that most people don't talk about. The first skill is observational skills. Observational skills mean you observe and see things the way they really are. I have a saying that the people working for me get tired of sometimes. I say, "Reality is our best friend. Reality will tell us what to do." If we send a piece of mail out, reality of who responds to that or who doesn't respond to us tell us that was good and we continue or tells us that we have to go back and change some things.

Reality is our friend, our best friend, so we look at observation. And observation has two prongs to it. One prong is the things out in the world. The second prong is our internal observation, because all of us have been indoctrinated as we grew up. I grew up 12 years Catholic school and from that high school I went into the Marines, so I had some of the best people indoctrinating me. But what you find is that — I chose the Marines, but I didn't chose the Catholic school. So I'm being indoctrinated by somebody else's dogma. We all have that. Our parents indoctrinate us, but a lot of times the indoctrination is for our benefits; it's not always for our benefits. So what we have to do is we have to turn off divisional skills into ourselves and look at what we do and how we respond.

As an example, every time your spouse does something, it aggravates you. We all do things ourselves. I don't know how many people have spent time looking for their keys because they don't put their keys in the same spot. Easy way to solve that problem, you put your keys in the same spot every time. You train yourself to do that and then what you do is your unconscious will do that for you.

So we look at the things that eat up our energy — our mental energy, or emotional energy, and our physical energy — and a lot of times those came from someplace else, from a mentor, some older sibling. And so what I would do is have somebody make those observations. And then what I try to do, and especially in the selling process — and I say the selling process is that when I meet with somebody I do the same thing every time. I give them a gift. I get their values. I talk to them about what is important to them. You give somebody a gratitude stone and you have them rub it in their fingers and you have them look at the things that you're grateful for.

And you do that with yourself before you make the sales call and then you're at a state of — like, I've got three great girls. One of them has just finished her master's; she's making $61,000 a year at 24 years old. The other one just got accepted and is going to graduate this year. And then my 14 year old is just staring high school. And my wife, and my family, and my cats, and my businesses, and the people that have worked for me — pretty much we all get along. People love working for us, all my subs. So if I put myself in that state and get out of my preoccupation, then go talk to somebody and put them in the same state, then we start talking about their families and stuff and then we start talking to them about where they live, what their beliefs are, what's important to them.

I'll give you a real good example that's going on in this country right now, and that is President Bush. Whatever you feel about President Bush, it doesn't matter; the country is pretty split. There's a group of people, a big group of people — and maybe one group is bigger than the other, I'm not going to get in that argument — but one group of people think President Bush is the best dang president we ever had and the best one for the times we're in and dealing with the war on terror as best he can. The other ones, the other side, things he should be impeached, get him out of office, they can't wait to get somebody else in there, he's the worst president we ever had, and that he shouldn't even be allowed to breathe almost.

So what happens is that those two people have been indoctrinated with different values, so one of them believes something that's more important than somebody else. And so one side believes that they don't believe in war, they should bring the troops home tomorrow; and the other side says, "Look, we started the fight. We're in a war. We need to finish it." The reason they have those beliefs is because of this indoctrination process.

So what I would do with somebody I train is I would go through those things with him and see where he's blocked, and you can do this with yourself. You just say, "Every time I go to talk to somebody I have this internal dialogue going on that says, 'I really need the money; I can sell him.' Or, 'I really need to make sure they buy today," for whatever reason. So what you do is you change that.

You change that dialogue to, "Okay, I'm going to see if they're a good match with us. I'm going to see if I can really help this person. I'm going to see this person as if I can hold their hand and say, 'Look, honey, there's no cars coming. We can cross the street now.'" We take away their fear. We take away and we give them what they want, which is be led, and we treat them in a gentle — condescending, but a very gentle way — and they feel trusted. And all of a sudden we're not a salesman anymore. We're not a chiropractor. We're not a personal trainer. We're a trusted advisor and friend, which is exactly what we want because we all buy from our friends. So that would be the first two things that I would try and do; those are the two ways of observation.

The second skill is what I call gumption. And gumption is an old word that I have a definition for. My definition is this: getting my lazy ass to do the things that I know I need to do, when I need to do them. And that's the follow-up, writing the pieces, and as a salesman that's getting this process so engrained in myself that I don't have to think about it. And I do that by practice and what I call rituals.

A ritual is one of the only two ways that people can change personal behaviors. The first one is an emotional ritual. The first one is a very emotional experience. As an example, my mother quit smoking after 55 years, five minutes before my dad came home from the hospital because he had one of his lungs removed after smoking about as long. He had one of his lungs removed and was coming home, and the doctor told him, "If you smoke in the house with him, you'll kill him." High motivation, emotional impact, changed.

Another way of changing is a ritual. A ritual is something that you've turned into a habit. An example of that, years ago I wanted to run marathons. I found by observation that if I came home from work and I didn't immediately go in and change clothes, do my warm-up, and go out the door — and I had a cup of coffee, got engaged with my wife, or anything — I found that the chances of me getting to running that day were probably 70 percent against and 30 percent that I'd get myself out the door. So I built a ritual to myself that every day that I was going to run I walked through the doors; put my keys where they go every time so I don't have to think about it; and I go into the bedroom; I change clothes; I start a warm-up which entailed just doing some side bends with a broom handle and some twists, and then the rest of it; put my shoes on; out the door. Once that became a habit I ran 28 marathons.

So rituals are very important. Observation is very important and gumption is very important. But gumption comes from taking the time to build in these things that you want.

So let's get back to the sentence that we had. And some of these I've already covered a little bit, but let's talk about — okay, "encouraging their dreams." This is number one, "encouraging their dreams." Okay. This is exactly what we do with our kids, you know? We encourage their dreams. All my girls are good students, As and Bs. My middle girl is the brightest of the lot so far. She got out of college in three years and decided to stay the extra year to play softball with her teammates. And because of their grades, they get to do whatever they want. Well, to get those grades we had to teach them certain rituals about homework, and certain rituals about reading every day, and certain rituals about vocabulary, and certain ways to conduct themselves as successful people conduct themselves.

And this is what you're going to get with Chris. He's going to show you how you can use and build in your business the success that he enjoys, and this is exactly what you're going to want. But it comes from — that's going to give you your dreams. If you see a picture of him on the beach with bags of money and a laptop and you go, "I like that," then he's going to show you how to do that. And it's going to come from doing different behaviors than you're doing now. So that will be an example of one.

I have a goal right now. I want to be the oldest guy that ever got what they call a Russian Kettlebell Certification. That's a certification to teach — a kettlebell is like a cannonball with a handle on it. The guy is training me; he's showing me exactly the steps. He's got three phases of it. Each phase is 15 weeks. Here's the supplements, here's everything that's supporting my dream. And naturally he gets rewarded very well from me, not just monetarily but I also have helped him with his business because I want to give back to the people that encourage my dreams.

The second one is justify their failures. Well, the way we justify our failures with people is really simple. "It's not your fault." It's not your fault that you aren't the living life that Chris is because you don't have the information that he has. It's not your fault that you haven't lost the weight yet, you just don't know the straight story on it. And if you try to research and stuff, the one person says, "Don't eat carbs." And the other person says, "No, carbs are great." And so you've got contradicting information. So you try things out on your own and you see whether or not they work for you. Long, tedious process.

One of the things that helped me immensely in life when I was young — I was in my mid-20s — and I would go to somebody like a businessman — I was in business by the time I was 26 — and I would say, "Look, this is what I want to know how to do. I know you know how to do it. I'd like to spend a day with you, or whatever time you can give me, give me a couple of hours at lunch so I can pick your brain. I'd like you to give me some guidance and I'm willing to pay you for whatever you decide. You tell me how big to make the check and I'm in."

I also once told one of the best copywriters in the world — a copywriter is somebody who rights ads and sales letters for businesses, Gary Halbert. He died last April unexpectedly; I think he was 66 years old. I wrote him a — actually, I faxed him a letter and told him that I would go anywhere in the world to learn his process because that's what I wanted to do. I wanted to be a good copywriter.

I knew he had a girlfriend in Costa Rica and I said, "I'll fly to Costa Rica. You just tell me what the dates are, where you're going to be. I'll be there if you make yourself available, and I want to go through the whole process from start to finish with you. And whatever fees you want, you decide."

He wrote me back and he said, "I'm really intrigued by your proposition." He says, "I think I can help you immensely, but I don't have the time right now." And he says, "Sometimes I wake up at 3:00 in the morning in my underwear and I get an idea and I write it down then." And I've always appreciated the fact that he didn't put me through that. But what he did for me, he sent me 10 years of his newsletters, which half of them were on copywriting. And he said, "Go through these. Learn what you can from those and then if you still need my help, call me back."

So all the resources that you need are there and that's where the gumption comes from. I got myself to call somebody that's pretty much an idol in the direct response world and is almost one of the founding fathers. He was making $20,000 a day in the early '60s. So anything that you want to know is out there if you just go and ask for it. So part of the selling process is ask for what you want. I want people that I work with to be fun. And one of the mandates that I have for myself is that if you're not nice to me, you don't get to stand next to me.

One of the other things that I have is I don't want anybody to work for me, I don't want anybody in my life, that I wouldn't go out to dinner with. That includes my trainer or anybody else. If I have a contract with them, I have to like them enough to where I would spend the evening at dinner with them or I don't want them in my life. So the other thing that I would teach somebody that I'm training to sell is to set the criteria for who you are and what you want.

All right. Let's go on down our list. Our next one is "release their fears." Let's say you're a chiropractor. What are the fears of people that go to chiropractors? I've been going to chiropractors all my life. I really believe it. I have friends that don't. They're worried that he's going to hurt them, that getting an adjustment hurts. They're worried that he is not going to make it better; it's going to make it worse. They're worried and fearful that he might damage their spine and they'll be screwed up for life. So those are some of the fears. So what the chiropractor does is he simply sits them down and explains to them in layman terms exactly back to "this is what I'll do, this is what I won't do," and explains that to people either in his mailings, his ads, one-on-one, however, so that people see that you hit on all five of these things in your sales presentation and your sales message.

Confirm their suspicions. "Well, there really was somebody on the grassy knoll." That would be to confirm a suspicion. A suspicion is, "Donald Trump knows more about real estate investing and he knows insider secrets that I don't know." And when he comes out with the book Here's the Secrets that Made Me One of the Wealthiest Men in the World or A Multi-Billionaire, then you know and you read his book. And when you hook up with people like Chris you go, "Yes, there were things that I didn't know. That's how you do it." And you add that into your sales presentation.

And understand that a sales presentation is everything that you do with your business, from your business card to your brochures; everything is a sales presentation so you want to address these things in all of those mediums.

Throw rocks at their enemies. Who is their enemies? Well, they're the ones that are giving me all the false information. They're the ones that aren't telling me the truth. They're the ones that say there will be no new taxes and they're raising taxes. They're the politicians that we don't trust. They're a lot of people. And a lot of times it's changing.

For a long time repair houses, when you took your car in for repair we didn't trust the fact that we really needed a new carburetor or we really needed the brake pads changed. And they put a law in to where they have to have to seal parts. We still don't know whether the old parts are from our car or somebody else. I don't know anything about automotives. I know how to operate a car. I have what I call a romantic understanding of something. A romantic understanding is I know how to work it. I know how to get in, put gas in it, turn it on, run it.

Classical understanding is a different type of understanding. That's how all the systems — the fuel system, the exhaust system, whatever other systems it has, electrical system in the car — how all those things mesh together and make the car work. I have no interest in knowing that about a car.

The selling process is the same thing. What I'm telling you here and what I'm hopefully conveying is that you're going to get both of those learnings from me. You're going to get the romantic side — look at the money you're going to make, look at the cars that you can buy, look at the houses, look at the way you can take care of your family, look at the things that are important to you. And you're going to get the nuts and bolts — here's how you do it. Take these steps with the left foot first. Here's how you hold the weight when you're working out. Here's how you lay on the thing. Here's why I'm adjusting you this way so it doesn't hurt and put your back out. Whatever your genre is. Here's why you need this vitamin. Here's why you need this supplement.

One more, number five, throw rocks at their enemies. In other words, "We're on the same side." Yes, I'm on the same side in the construction business because I'm on your side. I'm in your house and I never lose sight of the fact that this is your castle, this is your house, you get it the way you want. And if we're against those contractors that don't return calls; that don't show up when they say they're going to; that don't tell you about any hidden costs; that bring non-English speaking people, drop them off, and turn them loose and you have no way to communicate with them; those that leave a mess and don't clean up every day after themselves, we're on the same side because I have the "they don't want" list. All those things on "they don't want" are their enemies. That's not what they want. You are on the same side. And we throw rocks — by throwing rocks means we are in agreement that those are things that they don't want. I'm in agreement with them that those are the things that we don't want.

So I want to read this sentence once more for the people just so that they get it, and I think it's important.

"People will do anything for those who –" so people will do anything for you if you "– encourage their dreams, justify their failures, release their fears, confirm their suspicions, help them throw rocks at their enemies."

I think that's pretty much our time. Is there anything that I could be a little clearer on, Chris, or is there anything that you'd like me to –?

No, you were really thorough. It's perfect. I just really appreciate your time and I'm sure a lot of people get a lot out of this to help them with their fitness marketing and health club marketing campaigns. But I would like to know, where can people learn more about you, your products, your services?

I'm going to give them a phone number and a fax. Now, as I said in the beginning I'm kind of a Neanderthal when it comes to the Internet. I mean, I know I have computers and we use them, but my girls are experts, my wife's an expert, I am not. We are going to have Web pages this year some time.

And so I'm going to give you two phone numbers. The first one is our office. It's Marketing Velocity, (714) 349-1137. And the fax number, if you want to fax me, is (714) 892-4064.

That's pretty much it, Chris. I really appreciate you inviting me to this call. I enjoyed it immensely.

Work Less and Make More

This has been a Kick Back Life Personal Trainer Marketing Interview with James May